tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post5016551725862579951..comments2023-12-05T19:10:42.635-05:00Comments on Lutherans and Procreation: Contraception and MurderErich Heidenreich, DDShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12819223688598369327noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-66222327548626904922012-05-01T14:10:03.679-04:002012-05-01T14:10:03.679-04:00An anonymous commenter on a later blog post, γεννη...An anonymous commenter on a later blog post, <a href="http://lutheransandcontraception.blogspot.com/2012/05/blog-post.html" rel="nofollow">γεννηθὲν</a>, wrote:<br /><br />"The ESV renders Ecclesiastes 11:5, 'As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.'<br /><br />"As said above, we should think twice about claiming to know with precision what God says we do not know!"Erich Heidenreich, DDShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12819223688598369327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-71977178979314960312012-04-04T11:25:08.641-04:002012-04-04T11:25:08.641-04:00Erich,
Your question is an interesting one (its n...Erich,<br /><br />Your question is an interesting one (its not quite what I said though: I do not think the validity of my position depends on being able to produce what you have asked for), and one that I hope to look into more. Thanks for the question.<br /><br />Erich - so you know, I do believe I am open to persuasion here. Of course, if you are right (about this being a salvation-level issue - for all unrepentant sin is absolutely deadly to us), I may well need shattering, not simply persuasion (which I believe the Holy Spirit also does, with reason and evidence, as well as the Word). "Is the Word opposing contraception God's Word that shatters"? <br /><br />That, I think, is the question. <br /><br />+NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-82776330785154688122012-04-03T11:32:52.992-04:002012-04-03T11:32:52.992-04:00Nathan,
You wrote: "Yes, and I believe that...Nathan,<br /><br />You wrote: <i>"Yes, and I believe that those pastors were wrong about this issue as they were others."</i><br /><br />I'd be very interested in knowing what other important moral teaching you think the church and all her pastors and teachers were unanimously in error about for two millennia.Erich Heidenreich, DDShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12819223688598369327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-46411134109342314072012-04-03T11:08:07.554-04:002012-04-03T11:08:07.554-04:00Gregory,
By the way, I say this as someone who is...Gregory,<br /><br />By the way, I say this as someone who is also quite disturbed about the rampant antinomianism in the church:<br /><br />http://infanttheology.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/we-are-all-antinomians-now-except-the-babies-part-v-of-v/<br /><br />+NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-78092071508513911122012-04-03T11:05:56.607-04:002012-04-03T11:05:56.607-04:00Gregory,
Yes, and I believe that those pastors we...Gregory,<br /><br />Yes, and I believe that those pastors were wrong about this issue as they were others.<br /><br />I will "not go beyond what is written" and leave it at that. <br /><br />In Christ,<br />NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-18668872446733848542012-04-02T15:14:53.293-04:002012-04-02T15:14:53.293-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-64811219793670571622012-04-02T08:25:41.838-04:002012-04-02T08:25:41.838-04:00...
You said: “No, I'm sorry they do not.”
...... <br /><br />You said: “No, I'm sorry they do not.”<br /><br />Well, I still think they do. You confuse the issue with your example of the couple you know with 3 children and 4 Down’s adoptees. My point is that they are not obligated to adopt any of the Down’s children and if they have a Down’s child in their extended family that needs adoption and they have the most means to do so, they are still not necessarily obligated to be the ones to do the adopting if others in their family are willing and able. As to singleness, it is a blessing from God, but in the example I gave, the person does not necessarily need to be one who is given the gift of celibacy. Any person, I said, may, without being accused of sin, reject offers from friends and family who desire to “set them up” with dates (or whatever) with these persons. <br /><br />“Now, these are all just men and they could be wrong, though it would be a serious error on their part as they all so taught their flocks, laying upon them, if you are correct, burdens which God did not.”<br /><br />Yes – I note that though there are citations from a few early church fathers on this topic, it does not seem like it was a frequent topic in their writings. Why that is the case is a good question, and again, I think the book I linked to earlier should be considered. <br /><br />“My conclusion is that those respected pastors were correct and that we err greatly to remove the markers they laid down for the first 19 centuries of the faith.”<br /><br />I understand. It is a respectable tradition. However, as a Lutheran, ultimately we rely on the Scriptures. Something like infant baptism may not be explicit in the Scriptures, but, after one is aware of the teaching, it can certainly be seen to be implicit – and clearly implicit – in the Bible. I suggest it is not the same with contraception, and where Scripture refuses to explicitly speak, so should we. My take on it is that if this matter were as important as you make it out to be, the Apostolic injunctions would have been clearly preserved and safeguarded in the word. Most all of your observations (and this blog’s) about contraception and its effects I will agree with. The difference for me is, as I have said, God does not always call “sin” our failures to achieve what is ideal and certainly possible in a non-fallen world. He has always made provisions for “hard hearts” (that would be all of us) and continues to do so, even as He is active in His work to eliminate these things… I do not necessarily see polygamy, slavery, or contraception as sins, just as I do not necessarily see all divorces as sins (where the divorcer certainly is not fully trusting God). Nor do I advocate such things in saying this. <br /><br />“That is, whether there was a Scriptural obligation for such a man to marry the single mother of his child, there certainly was a cultural one.”<br /><br />Interesting point. Another one would be whether the bride is obligated to marry the man (seems to be at issue today: many woman just want the baby). I think you can make a case that persons engaging in the sex act are participating in the act that actually consummates marriage. Can they be separated? I’d say no, really. As a Christian parent, I certainly would expect my children to marry the first person that they sleep with – especially if they are impregnated. This is why I will be arranging my children’s marriages to take place when they are 14-15 years old. Just kidding. But seriously…. <br /><br />Again, I appreciate your points about adoptions. <br /><br />Blessings in Christ,<br />NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-12808539861038344502012-04-02T08:25:13.581-04:002012-04-02T08:25:13.581-04:00Gregory,
Again, a pleasure discussing these thing...Gregory,<br /><br />Again, a pleasure discussing these things with you. At this point, I'd say we've had some good discussion. I will continue to read the comments, but may not comment again (time is short for me - must be doing homeschooling lessons in addition to 50 hour work-weeks), though I would like to. If I do, it will probably be a week or 2 or 3. <br /><br />“Thanks for correcting me. However, taking your point as I now understand it, wouldn't being open to life also serve our neighbor…. I can think of no greater benefit to ones neighbors both immediate an into the far distant future, than openness to life which spans the generations.”<br /><br />As regards your points there, we are in complete agreement, but as I said, the difference is that we can’t talk “ownership” (“property”) here, with easy liquidity of “assets”. Speaking from a this-world perspective, people are indeed assets, investments, etc., but they are of course more than that. <br /><br />“Onan's acts of coitus interruptus, had God not struck him dead, would have deprived future generations of the leadership of the house of David and humanity of its Savior.”<br /><br />Yes, that was indeed his sin. He did not provide Tamar with the children she desired and needed (back then, children were, rightly, not seen as a liability, but as the long-term blessing that they were). But to go from this to the point that all contraception within a marriage is sin seems to me a stretch. Further, when Lewis talks about “selective breeding” in that first quote, it seems that the wider context for this quote is eugenics. Few if any married Christians who practice contraception have that in mind. As for the others, I agree: if we contracept, the hour of begetting may indeed pass. One particularly blessed individual may not be granted to us – but then again, we do not want to fall off the other side of the horse here, as we value all children, and should, equally. <br /><br />Regarding your personal story, you have my sympathies. Our first son has Asperger’s Syndrome (born when we were in our late 20s), but that is not close to what you deal with. I am aware that in the later years the chance for genetic deformities and the like increases. When I talk about deliberate perpetual childlessness being a sin, that kind of statement would be said in conjunction with a charge to conceive earlier, not to wait until later, as many sadly do. By the way, we have 4 boys, with another child on the way in September. We are both in our late 30s now. <br /><br />I said: “"I gave you two solid examples (about adoption and single people) and I think they stand in spite of your criticisms."<br /><br /><br />....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-18207636933357187352012-03-30T15:59:52.537-04:002012-03-30T15:59:52.537-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-37998674291574416932012-03-30T15:57:47.137-04:002012-03-30T15:57:47.137-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-77386281969969425002012-03-30T15:06:24.391-04:002012-03-30T15:06:24.391-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-36510307485005097042012-03-30T14:45:47.188-04:002012-03-30T14:45:47.188-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-46378994390199794632012-03-30T14:32:24.157-04:002012-03-30T14:32:24.157-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-67499053667934253392012-03-30T14:27:20.017-04:002012-03-30T14:27:20.017-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-14542874469766450972012-03-30T14:24:44.856-04:002012-03-30T14:24:44.856-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-88367072493175183052012-03-30T13:46:29.877-04:002012-03-30T13:46:29.877-04:00"I've asked the question many times and I..."I've asked the question many times and I've never had anyone give me even one other blessing of God mentioned in Scripture which they admit that they take affirmative steps to reject....The sinful thought or temptation is not trusting God and His word that children or more children or a child at this time, would be a blessing. Contraception is the means by which the blessing is rejected. "<br /><br />I gave you two solid examples (about adoption and single people) and I think they stand in spite of your criticisms. <br /><br />"Well, here the question is whether taking affirmative steps to reject God's blessings is a sin."<br /><br />It would be a blessing to receive your deceased brother's wife. If one was married already, that would be polygamy. Is polygamy a blessing, and if so, in what way? In a fallen world only perhaps (in *some* circumstances).... but it is not ideal, for Jesus made this clear. Again, it would be sin if other family members could or would not do it. If in your culture this was the firstborn's responsibility, I don't see how one could avoid doing this, as much as it might bother wife #1, or brother, who would like to take the words in Genesis seriously like Jesus did. <br /><br />"Using contraception is a means to sin, just as using a gun to shoot one's brother is a means to sin. It is true that condoms, the Pill, IUDs, etc. are not explicitly condemned in Scripture, but neither are guns. It is no defense to the sin of murder that using guns to shoot someone is never explicitly identified as a sin in Scripture. Lifewise, it is no defense to rejecting God's gift of fertility that the use of condoms, the Pill, IUDs, etc. is never explicitly identified as a sin in Scripture."<br /><br />This is not about Scripture's teachings on guns and condoms. This is about Scriptures teachings about murder (i.e. actually intentionally killing another human being) and its teachings on whether or not it is permissible to reject God's gift of fertility without necessarily labeling it "sin". <br /><br />"I look forward to continuing this conversation when you are able to do so. It took me a long time to reach the understanding I now have and, like all fallen men, I am still seeking edification." <br /><br />Me too Greg.<br /><br />In Christ,<br />NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-46513566965103793122012-03-30T13:34:14.913-04:002012-03-30T13:34:14.913-04:00Gregory,
I is a pleasure... (taking a couple minu...Gregory,<br /><br />I is a pleasure... (taking a couple minutes here...)<br /><br />"I would say, absent extraordinary circumstances which would make it impossible for them to care for their younger sibling, grandchild, nephew or niece, etc., absolutely they sin."<br /><br />Yes - if there are no other relatives who can do it and they still say "no". Or, if they are the only remaining relative and they say "no".<br /><br />"Giving away property to help others is not a rejection of a blessing; it is a God commanded use of a blessing. Refusing prosperity, homes, etc. would be an entirely different matter, so your answer evades the question."<br /><br />No, you are not understanding me. Only rejection of these things would be rejecting such blessings. I was saying that with these property blessings it would certainly make sense to take them even if you were not going to use them yourself, but for others. We would be foolish to not accept good health, because by this also, we serve our neighbor.<br /><br />"And to the extent that a person has prosperity, homes, career, etc. by rejecting fertility, one has to honestly ask himself whether those things are blessings from God or temptations from the Evil One, who promised our Lord the world and its kingdoms if He would bow down and worship him. One cannot worship both God and Mammon."<br /><br />I agree. <br /><br />....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-87068033926140516232012-03-30T11:56:14.585-04:002012-03-30T11:56:14.585-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-38828637461702980472012-03-30T11:42:39.048-04:002012-03-30T11:42:39.048-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-20038752039247536902012-03-30T11:32:24.267-04:002012-03-30T11:32:24.267-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-58683361883219386352012-03-30T11:23:16.225-04:002012-03-30T11:23:16.225-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-88144372818767639772012-03-30T11:15:33.469-04:002012-03-30T11:15:33.469-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-53809610583930680822012-03-30T11:00:07.743-04:002012-03-30T11:00:07.743-04:00...
Erich, you said:
“Also, if you think that G......<br /><br />Erich, you said: <br /><br />“Also, if you think that God commands every married couple to adopt children, you are very much mistaken. He commands the church as a whole to be concerned with the care of widows and orphans, but He does not call every individual Christian with this particular vocation.”<br /><br />I do not think that God commands every married couple to adopt children, as is now clear from my example above. Nor, do I, at this point, think that God commands every married couple to have as many kids as is *naturally* possible for them (and obviously, there is something that does not seem quite right about any idea that would be focused on maximizing the wife’s output – though I am *not* saying that you are saying this, nor am I equating a view like this with the simple hope that a couple might have as many kids as is naturally possible for them, i.e. that God would desire to give them). Side note: Prolonged breastfeeding also can prevent additional pregnancies, as we have found out: you need to be consistently breast-feeding though, including during the night, for this to work (I think few people know this: if this could happen for a woman, it will only happen if she is consistent in her breast-feeding – no long breaks)<br /><br />Gregory: “Is there anyway to make this argument without at the same time saying that you do not completely trust in God?”<br /><br />Probably not. I see all of this in the wider context of the fallen world though, where the ideal is not always attainable, and the non-ideal is not explicitly labeled “sin” by God, even if he would work for the elimination of these things. Therefore, things like polygamy, slavery (note that it is Rome, and not us, who says these things are necessarily sin) and contraception are all less than ideal (obviously, the desire to do all three of these things may readily be associated with fear, a lack of trust, and sexual lust), and while though while not being explicitly called “sin”, God is working, through His Church, to eliminate such things. <br /><br />Erich: “This has left many people in the position of making private, personal decisions on ethics without the guidance of the church and her leaders.”<br /><br />I agree. If what I have said above (or something like it) is not actually the teaching of the ancient Church, though perhaps only implicit through all these years, than I am wrong and need to repent. My opinions be damned. I am checking out this book to see if it might offer some insight: http://clicnet.clic.edu/record=b1846880~S1 Surely what the rabbis were saying, if anything, in Jesus’ day, might have some relevancy to this topic. <br /><br />Blessings to you – will check again on Monday.<br /><br />+NateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-43656971110099800162012-03-30T10:59:41.717-04:002012-03-30T10:59:41.717-04:00Erich and Gregory,
Trying to make time to talk (o...Erich and Gregory,<br /><br />Trying to make time to talk (other vocations suffering a bit!). On some blogs, I have conversations that have gone on for months, with each person weighing in when they have time, over extended intervals of time. So it is a preference thing in some cases.<br /><br />Erich: I understand. You see your blog as a summons to repent. This is the unbroken, historic teaching of the Church from the earliest days. Scripture supports this view and does not undermine it. Etc. I see your blog as a summons and invitation to reflect and prayerfully consider. I believe I am very open to believing as you do. In the Old Testament we see how far from God His people got to be. I do respect you for holding tenaciously to your views. Again, let me be clear that children are always a blessings and reward - never a curse. I look at a family like the Duggars and cheer them on. <br /><br />Gregory, you say: “So, are there any other blessings which God describes in Scripture which you take affirmative steps to reject? This is my problem with your argument: I've never heard anyone say that prosperity or homes or meaningful and rewarding work are blessings from God, but I'm taking affirmative steps to reject those blessings.” <br /><br />You have articulated a challenging question/argument – and I appreciate the opportunity to consider it. First of all, I think if we are going to talk about rejection of blessings, let’s not talk about property: homes, cars, cattle, money, etc. These are things which can be given away to others to help the neighbor. Ownership can be readily transferred. It is not so easy in the case of people, or at least some people (I also do not think that slavery, like polygamy, is necessarily sinful). Therefore, I think that it makes sense here to talk about the willing rejection of “person” blessings. You talk about taking “affirmative steps” to reject these things. If a couple consistently and persistently does this, failing to consider whether God wants to give them children, there is no doubt that this is against His will. We can agree on this. However, with many couples, this is not the case. Each time they are intimate, they may ask themselves whether or not they should contracept. In other words, they realize that there is the possibility that God wants to give them another person (He’s really the only one who can do this) to love, care for, be committed to, etc. What might be some relevant analogies? Well, again, adoption. Gregory – your points about adoption are very interesting and informative. Thank you – and still, I do not know how much they change things here. We are simply moving the question into the realm of the extended family. Here, each member of the extended family should realize that there is the possibility that God may want to give them another person, namely a nephew, niece, grandson/daughter, etc., in the tragic event that both parents die. Now, if this does occur, and brother 1 (this implies there are others, and there are) and his wife are asked to take in their niece/nephew – and they refuse, or say they would rather not – do they necessarily thereby sin? I would say “no”. Likewise, let us say that a person who is single has close friends or family who are willing and eager to “set them up” with good people they know. Here again, there is the possibility that God may want to give them another person – one they could love, care for, be committed to, etc. If this person rejects even the possibility of meeting another person this way (taking “affirmative steps” to do so!) are they necessarily sinning? Again, no. Likewise, the man who realizes that he could indeed be married to a certain person does not sin by failing to marry the virgin (no “soul mates” here)<br /><br />...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18631784.post-90417742455844419682012-03-29T11:59:46.966-04:002012-03-29T11:59:46.966-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981377002518910734noreply@blogger.com