Pr. Todd Wilken interviews Dr. Allan Carlson then has open lines on the subject. Click here for the MP3. The interview and beginning of the open lines segment go quite well. But then near the end of open lines the question of "how many is enough" is brought up by a caller and then Pr. Wilken makes a weak analogy regarding crop management. Then, thankfully, producer Jeff Schwarz (father of four) jumps into redeem the program, injecting the issue of trusting God into the conversation. The open lines continues for the first half of the next hour. Overall, it was a great conversation - better than previous coverage of the issue by Issues, Etc. on the subject. Pr. Wilken handled the callers' questions pretty well. I did not get a chance to call in, however. By the time I did, the program was over. I did get to say hi to Jeff, though. :-)Dr. Carlson had an excellent article in the most recent issue of Touchstone magazine, which is what spurred this interview. Interestingly, in the article Carlson implies that the LCMS clergy began artificially limiting their family sizes between 1890 and 1920, citing a change in average family size from 6.5 to 3.7. I wonder about this implication, from which he further implies that since they thus ceased to be models of a fruitful home this contributed to the change in attitude for their congregations and the broader culture, precipitating the acceptance of contraception by the culture at large.
I'm going to contact Dr. Carlson to find out 1) the source of these figures he gave in the article, and 2) if he considered the possibility of factors other than contraception which may have contributed to this change in average family size among LCMS clergy. I would consider it possible (even probable) that during this period of substantial growth in the LCMS (especially post WWI) when so many young men were entering the ministry that the figures are more a reflection of an increased percentage of young pastors in the LCMS who had not yet fathered all their children.
If this factor is already controlled for somehow in the figures Dr. Carlson provided, then these figures represent a VERY interesting finding that I have not personally encountered thus far in my studies about this subject. In the interview (above), Dr. Carlson even broadens his comments in this regard to include the clergy of other denominations as having smaller families on average even before the official change in church teaching began to occur in 1930.
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11 comments:
The only thing I wasn't to happy about was the allowance for the illogical thinking that women who do not use BC will have 13 or 14 children.
It should have been noted that not all women even have 1 child, let alone 14.
To think that just because we CAN have children means that we will be overloaded with them is a strawman argument against trusting God.
Excellent point. To be fair, it's just impossible to adequately address all the aspects of this issue in one hour on a talk show. The whole numbers game is a fallacy of logic that always seems to creep into the discussion, mainly because of fear that God will bless us with more than we can handle. Actually, the reasoning is clearly correct. God does bless us with more than we can handle - that is, by ourselves. But with God, all things are possible. He gives us strength and resources where we have none - whether that's the ability to care for 14 children or one handicapped child, and even the strength to handle infertility.
Dr. & Mrs. Preus Speaking on Life in the Parsonage
Student Wives' Seminar—Spring Quarter, 1988
Rev. Dr. Robert David Preus (1924-1995)
Professor of Systematic Theology
Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri (1957-1974)
Concordia Theological Seminary,
Springfield, Illinois & Fort Wayne, Indiana (1974-1993)
"Many, many times, people have asked Donna, “Don't you believe in planned parenthood?” This is before planned parenthood was identified with abortion. She said, “Yes. I just believe in letting God do the planning.” I'd say the same about this term birth control, which has so many meanings and vagaries. To me, the issue of birth control isn't basically the Roman Catholic argument about what's natural and what isn't natural—the use of prophylactics or rhythm cycle. That's kind of beside the point. That's typical Roman Catholic casuistry to make a person feel good when he doesn't really want to do the right thing.
To me, this whole question of children is like the question of work or of calling or anything else. You either trust in the providence of God or you don't. You either let God control your family as much as you possibly can or you don't. If you leave it up to God, sometimes He doesn't give a woman more than one child. And sometimes He doesn't give a woman more than two children. And sometimes He just showers His blessings and gives a woman 10 or 12. And He enables you to cope. And I know this sounds too easy from many—probably my wife, too. I just think that with every aspect of our lives if we trusted much more in the very presence of God—every hair on our head is numbered; a sparrow doesn't fall to ground without our Heavenly Father knowing it. So maybe He can just run our lives a little bit more directly than sometimes we want to let Him. That's not only on the question of children but on all the issues of life."
M. L. F. Freiberg Sr.
Excellent quote. Where did you get it?
This quote is from a seminary student wives forum that Dr. & Mrs. Preus were asked to conduct on the pastor's family life. The video recording shows them answering submitted questions on topics related to contraception, raising a family, the pastor's work schedule, the role of the pastor's wife, and the like. Mrs. Preus indicates that she and her husband talked about the subject of birth control all night on the first or second date. This was met with some laughter, of course, but their purpose was to be in agreement on the topic prior to marriage.
Correction - there is a typo toward the end of the quote. The "from" in "And I know this sounds too easy from many" should be "for."
M. L. F. Freiberg Sr.
FYI...Here are some more quotes from the Robert Preus forum mentioned above...
God just impregnated one of my daughter-in-laws, so now were up to thirty-four grandchildren.
People have asked Donna, "Don't you believe in planned parenthood?" This is before planned parenthood was identified with abortion. She said, "Yes. I just believe in letting God do the planning."
God is the Creator of order. His created order was three different realms. This is brought out in the little catechism, so it's Biblical Lutheranism and catholic with a small c. The first is the State. The second is the Church. The third institution is marriage or the family or the home. That marriage indicates a family, indicates children. It's the procreative thing. It's the one institution of God, the one place where we can use the word synergism. We're all synergists in the creative order because women and men are actually co-creators of God--bringing into being God's own creatures. ... We, then, become pleasing to God by virtue of the fact that we are in this relationship, in this covenant of marriage. And then God blesses us with the family and with children. So it's God's will, it's God's order according to the very created order of things that there be homes, families, children.
I don't want to call motherhood a profession. It's higher than a profession. It's a calling. ... [Mothers] are the greatest people in the world for influencing this world of ours.
M. L. F. Freiberg Sr.
Is that tape for sale anywhere? I'd love a copy!
Well, I suppose I qualify as an "anywhere." I could send you a VHS tape at cost (tape and shipping). Let me know.
Something to keep in mind about this recording is the quality of the audio. During the 1980s, a number of forums and convocations were videotaped with the speaker's podium being miked as a matter of habit--therefore, good sound. That, unfortunately, is NOT the case with this particular recording. Dr. and Mrs. Preus can be heard, but sometimes you have listen closely, turn up the volume, and rewind to hear some of the statements. The tape is about 100 minutes or so in length.
I believe the student wife who opened and closed the forum is Deb Stottlemyer, wife of Rev. William Stottlemyer (CTS-FW 1990) of Defiance, Ohio. My understanding is that they have a "large" family, too.
M. L. F. Freiberg Sr.
FYI...Here is the outline that Dr. Preus handed out at the forum mentioned above...
We're not authorities on marriage or children or family life. We just--by the grace of God--got married, let God make the plans, and things worked out very well. But we don't have any formula. We don't really know what we did right or bad. But if anything was done right it was my helpmeet who did it.
These are points that could be included in any discussion about this [marriage and family]--not only for married people in general, but especially for pastors and pastor's wives.
The Blessings of Children
Psalm 127
Psalm 128
Prov. 31:28
Modern Problems in the Family
A. Drunkenness
B. Wife Beating
C. Drugs
D. Sodomy (Lesbianism)
E. AIDS
F. Divorce
G. Extra-Marital Sex (Fornication)
H. Abortion (Birth Control)
I. Feminism, Sexism, Equal Rights, etc.
-Robert Preus, 1988
Concordia Theological Seminary
Fort Wayne, Indiana
M. L. F. Freiberg Sr.
Thanks!
Here is another Robert Preus quote on the number of children in a family...
The Mission Emphasis at C.T.S.
Student Convocation—September 1986
Rev. Dr. Robert David Preus (1924-1995)
Professor of Systematic Theology
Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri (1957-1974)
Concordia Theological Seminary,
Springfield, Illinois & Fort Wayne, Indiana (1974-1993)
"Now, we're communicating the Gospel. But we're also communicating the Scriptures which are the source and norm for the saving Gospel. And that's where translation comes in, which is one of the things for you who are preparing for the foreign field—or any place you have to translate. I taught confirmation class to 12-year-old kids—I did a lot of translating. I had to get into a totally different culture—a culture which, fortunately, I had lived through, and in, sometime in my life. So it was not so difficult for me. I also had a great advantage because I had so many children. So I was constantly in that culture from age 25 down to age 5. That's a great advantage. I want to emphasize once again, the more children you have the better you'll be able to communicate the Gospel—at least to children. I had to get that in somewhere."
M. L. F. Freiberg Sr.
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